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Talk:James Mitchell (footballer, born 1897)

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Name

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He's referred to as Fred Mitchell in a book by John Bullen to mark the 125th anniversary of the Lancashire FA, and in the May 1964 edition of Football Monthly: 'Fred Mitchell, Preston's goalkeeper in the 1922 Final'.

Cris Freddi —Preceding unsigned comment added by 82.35.4.248 (talk) 01:22, 28 April 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Good point, but I think the WP:COMMONNAME appears to be 'James' or 'Jim'. Regards, GiantSnowman 10:08, 28 April 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Conclusive proof: A photo caption in the 20 April 1921 edition of the Daily Mirror: 'FAMOUS FOOTBALLER WEDS. - Mr. J. Frederick Mitchell, amateur international goalkeeper at the Olympic sports, who also plays for Preston North End, leaving St. Margaret's Church, Whalley Range, Manchester, with his bride, Miss M. Broadhead.' Cris Freddi

One source is not "conclusive proof." GiantSnowman 09:27, 8 December 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Why do you say 'one source' when I've already quoted two others above? And it's a CONTEMPORARY source, which surely counts far more than any number of websites or modern books. If he were known as James Mitchell, why would a 1921 paper call him Frederick? Cris Freddi — Preceding unsigned comment added by 82.35.3.81 (talk) 22:13, 24 December 2011 (UTC)[reply]

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Request for authority that this article be re-written

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This article is full of inaccuracies and omissions and needs to be re-written. My attempt to update the article was immediately undone, and I have been told that I first need to present the correct information with the appropriate sources in order to seek consensus to make such major changes.

These are the errors and omissions I have identified:-

Error/Omission Correct Information
He was not born in 1897. His birthdate is 18/11/1895.
He was not 17 when he made his debut for Blackpool. He was not 77 when he died. As above. He would have been 19 when he first played for Blackpool, and he was 79 when he died.
He was not born in Manchester. He was born at Waddington (now Lancashire, but then in Yorkshire).
He was not known as Jim. He was known as Fred throughout his playing career.
He was not a professional. He was an amateur throughout his playing career.
Northern Nomads were not a professional team. They were a purely amateur club.
Northern Nomads were not playing in the Lancashire Combination. They only joined this league several years after he had retired.
He also played for Fleetwood FC. He played for them in 1919-20 and 1920-21 before joining Preston.
There is no mention of him being an England Amateur International. He played for the England Amateur International team 5 times.
There is no mention of him playing in an FA Charity Shield match. He played for the Amateurs v. Professionals.

Sources for the 18/11/1895 birthdate include - the GRO Index of deaths (accessed via Find My Past), the 1939 National Registration (also accessed via Find My Past), the ENFA website (enfa.co.uk/), and the England Football Online website (www.englandfootballonline.com/TeamPlyrsBios/PlayersM/BioMitchellJF.html). Additionally the 1901 census has him as 5 years old, and the 1911 census has him as 15 years old (both consistent with a birthdate of 18/11/1895).

Sources for the Waddington birthplace include - the 1901 census and the 1911 census, the ENFA website, and the England Football Online website.

Sources for him being known as Fred - the England Football Online website, plus newspaper articles of the time, eg. Lancashire Daily Post (Preston) 28 March 1924, Star Green Un (Sheffield) 30 September 1922. Another Wikipedia contributor has previously also identified three additional sources for him being known as Fred on the James Mitchell (footballer, born 1897) talk page.

Sources for him not being a professional - self evident really, as although the article describes him as a professional he is at the time playing for the England and Great Britain Amateur teams.

Sources for Northern Nomads not being a professional club - see the Northern Nomads F.C. Wikipedia page, as it says they were Welsh Amateur Cup winners in 1920-21 and 1924-25 and FA Amateur Cup winners in 1925-26. The club was basically a northern equivalent of Corinthian F.C.

Sources for Northern Nomads not playing in the Lancashire Combination - The Lancashire Football Combination Commemorative Handbook 1891-1982; also the Lancashire Combination 1891 to 1982, by John Guilfoyle. It was not until 1933 that they joined the Lancashire Combination.

Sources for him playing for Fleetwood FC - The Lancashire Daily Post Handbook 1920-21; match report Lancashire Daily Post (Preston) 6 September 1920.

Sources for him playing for the England Amateur team - the England Football Online website; also editions of the Athletic News Football Annual 1920-21, 1924-25, and 1925-26.

Sources for him playing in an FA Charity Shield match - Athletic News Football Annual 1925-26; also match reports in newspapers eg. The Sportsman 7 October 1924.

I hope that this is sufficient evidence to indicate that this article needs to be re-written. - Higherwiki / Talk 01:00, 2 January 2020 (UTC)[reply]

WP:TLDR. And where are the online sources to WP:V? GiantSnowman 19:20, 2 January 2020 (UTC)[reply]
I've just come across this debate. A quick glance at range of resources I can access suggests to me that Higherwiki was correct to raise issues about accuracy of the article. Will collate sources and post update in next couple of days.RossRSmith (talk) 14:34, 16 August 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Common Name

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He was known as Fred Mitchell during his career and following retirement too. As per Lancashire Evening Post issue of 6 May 1925 page 7 article headlined "Fred Mitchell staying with Manchester City." https://www.britishnewspaperarchive.co.uk/viewer/bl/0000711/19250506/240/0007 and Liverpool Echo issue of 2 December 1933 page 14 "The be-spectacled Fred Mitchell, Preston’s goalkeeper in the 1922 Cup final, is now a sports’ manager for a boot factory at Daventry.” https://www.britishnewspaperarchive.co.uk/viewer/bl/0000271/19331202/155/0006 RossRSmith (talk) 11:09, 22 August 2021 (UTC)[reply]

DOB 1895, not 1897

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date of birth is 18 November 1895 as per his entry in the National Register for 1939 at address 4 Avenue Road, Leicester which matches address for Probate calendar for him in 1975 with DOD 30 May that year. Marjorie is at same address in 1939 and as per Lancashire Evening Post issue of 19 April 1921 page 5 she is his wife "Marjorie Broadhead...and James Frederick Mitchell, the well-known amateur footballer...goalkeeper...Blackpool and North End...Olympic Games last summer."RossRSmith (talk) 04:33, 22 August 2021 (UTC)[reply]

As stated in the earlier section - where are the online sources that verify this change of information? As it currently stands it's a lot of WP:OR. GiantSnowman 07:36, 22 August 2021 (UTC)[reply]
Okay, further detail including URL for DOB and birthplace
England Football Online has the correct DOB http://www.englandfootballonline.com/TeamPlyrsBios/PlayersM/BioMitchellJF.html
1901 Census (taken on night of 31 March) has him as James F Mitchell in family home with age shown as 5 and birthplace as Waddington.
Census Returns of England and Wales, 1901. Kew, Surrey, England: The National Archives, 1901.
Class: RG13; Piece: 3536; Folio: 41; Page: 1
https://search.ancestry.com.au/cgi-bin/sse.dll?dbid=7814&h=34123439&indiv=try&o_vc=Record:OtherRecord&rhSource=61596
Lancashire Evening Post issue of 19 April 1921 page 5 under headings of Mitchell-Broadhead / Marriage of Well-Known Amateur Goalkeeper
https://www.britishnewspaperarchive.co.uk/viewer/bl/0003212/19210420/169/0008
London Daily News issue of 20 April 1921 page 8 the pictures page with various headings and captions has one shot of bride and groom, caption identifying them as James Frederick Mitchell & Marjorie Broadhead couple, and one of the bridesmaids.
https://www.britishnewspaperarchive.co.uk/viewer/bl/0003212/19210420/169/0008
The 1939 National Register shows him living at 4 Avenue Road, Leicester with birthdate of 18 November 1895, and Marjorie living there too.
The National Archives; Kew, London, England; 1939 Register; Reference: RG 101/6020J
https://search.ancestry.com.au/cgi-bin/sse.dll?dbid=7814&h=34123439&indiv=try&o_vc=Record:OtherRecord&rhSource=61596
Entry for his name at 4 Avenue Rd, with DOD as 30 May 1975
England and Wales, National Probate Calendar (Index of Wills and Administrations), 1858-1995
https://www.ancestry.com.au/discoveryui-content/view/22467981:1904
RossRSmith (talk) 11:07, 22 August 2021 (UTC)[reply]
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